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Press Release
Discovery may help scientists boost broccoli's cancer-fighting power
Friday, October 22, 2010


Bacteria (Credit: NIAID)
A University of Illinois study has shown for the first time that sulforaphane, the powerful cancer-fighting agent in broccoli, can be released from its parent compound by bacteria in the lower gut and absorbed into the body.

"This discovery raises the possibility that we will be able to enhance the activity of these bacteria in the colon, increasing broccoli's cancer-preventive power," said Elizabeth Jeffery, a U of I professor of human nutrition.

"It's also comforting because many people overcook their broccoli, unwittingly destroying the plant enzyme that gives us sulforaphane. Now we know the microbiota in our digestive tract can salvage some of this important cancer-preventive agent even if that happens," she said.

Although scientists had long theorized that the intestinal microbiota could perform this trick, no one knew it for certain.

Now Jeffery and U of I colleagues Michael Miller and Ren-Hau Lai have proved it by injecting glucoraphanin, the parent compound for sulforaphane, into the ligated lower gut of rats and demonstrating that sulforaphane is present in blood from the mesenteric vein, which flows from the gut to the liver.

"The presence of sulforaphane in measurable amounts shows that it's being converted in the lower intestine and is available for absorption in the body," Jeffery said.

The cecum, the part of the rat's lower gut into which the scientists infused the glucoraphanin, houses bacteria that aid in digestion and metabolism, similar to the human colon.

According to Jeffery, sulforaphane is an extremely potent cancer-fighting agent. "The amount that you get in three to five servings a week—that's less than one daily serving of broccoli—is enough to have an anti-cancer effect. With many of the other bioactive foods you hear about, vast amounts are required for a measurable outcome."

Sulforaphane also has anti-inflammatory properties, which are interesting to scientists for their ability to counter the effects of many of the chronic diseases that accompany obesity and aging.

Miller suggests two ways bacteria in the colon could be manipulated to get a boost out of broccoli. "One way might be to feed the desirable bacteria with prebiotics like fiber to encourage their proliferation. Another way would be to use a probiotic approach—combining, say, broccoli with a yogurt sauce that contains the hydrolyzing bacteria, and in that way boosting your cancer protection."

Doesn't sound particularly appealing? Bacteria aren't always bad news, said Jeffery.

"One of the things we don't think about very much is the enormous amount of benefit we experience when a healthy community of bacteria colonizes the lower intestine," she said.

"We humans have a symbiotic relationship with countless hungry microbes that metabolize vitamins and other bioactive components of food. Now we can see another exciting example of their activity with the role they play in delivering sulforaphane from broccoli," she added.

###

University of Illinois College of Agricultural, Consumer and Environmental Sciences: http://aces.illinois.edu/


Thanks to University of Illinois College of Agricultural, Consumer and Environmental Sciences for this article.

This press release was posted to serve as a topic for discussion. Please comment below. We try our best to only post press releases that are associated with peer reviewed scientific literature. Critical discussions of the research are appreciated. If you need help finding a link to the original article, please contact us on twitter or via e-mail.



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Comments
Comrade Physioprof

Guest Comment
Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 1:09 pm CDT

So, you decided not to take the excellent advice you were given to refrain from posting grossly overblown press releases without contemporaneously posting any critical commentary?


JanedeLartigue
UC Davis
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 1:16 pm CDT

Here's the link to the article, will that shut you up?

http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Journals/JournalIssues/FO

If it bothers you that much you know what to do...write a blog piece!!

PalMD

Guest Comment
Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 1:19 pm CDT

The headline is idiotic (and yes, I am writing a post about it).  This is irresponsible and crappy journalism.

Comrade Physioprof

Guest Comment
Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 1:23 pm CDT

This type of foolish behavior does not "bother" me at all. To the contrary, it entertains.


JanedeLartigue
UC Davis
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 1:26 pm CDT

Great, I look forward to reading it, make sure you post a link. I don't have any issue with the opinions you guys have about whether this is crappy journalism, I'm not defending it, I just have an issue with you coming on here and commenting that it's crap and that it shouldn't be posted without engaging in any kind of discussion about it.  You're missing the point of these news articles, which in my mind are meant to encourage discussion about exactly these issues, the critical commentary is up to us.  In my mind CPP should either stop reading them or start giving some interesting feedback about them.

Comrade Physioprof

Guest Comment
Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 1:32 pm CDT

I am giving very interesting and germane feedback: that it is absurd to copy/paste shill self-serving grossly overblown press releases on a "science" blog.


Will
UC Davis
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 1:34 pm CDT

The point remains that the gut microflora plays a critical role in maintaining the health of the host.  There has been very little work done on these mircrobiota and the role that they play despite out-numbering the host cells 100 to 1.

The broccoli side of this story is not really the most interesting bit.  You need to be able to read past what the journalist is reporting and see the value of the work that was done.  I am a big advocate of getting more actual scientists as journalists so that the research is reported better, but it doesn't change that this is an interesting article and it does have value.

PalMD

Guest Comment
Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 2:10 pm CDT

JanedeLartigue said:

Great, I look forward to reading it, make sure you post a link. I don't have any issue with the opinions you guys have about whether this is crappy journalism, I'm not defending it, I just have an issue with you coming on here and commenting that it's crap and that it shouldn't be posted without engaging in any kind of discussion about it.  You're missing the point of these news articles, which in my mind are meant to encourage discussion about exactly these issues, the critical commentary is up to us.  In my mind CPP should either stop reading them or start giving some interesting feedback about them.

Ironic, in that the critique of the last one was trashed.


Will
UC Davis
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 2:16 pm CDT

The critique of what last one?

Namnezia

Guest Comment
Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 2:30 pm CDT

One constructive suggestion would be to aggregate these press releases in a section of the Website as a resource that people can use in order to get more information. The extra information would be in the form of useful discussion debunking or playing down the claims presented in the press releases. There is sufficient expertise around here in different fields that it might generate some useful commentary.

Just a thought.

Also: This rapidly rotating slideshow is making it hard to actually click on a link.

 

 


Brian Krueger, PhD
Columbia University Medical Center
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 2:32 pm CDT

I'm really sorry that you guys can't grasp why I post the press releases (linked to my blog post about why I post these).  LabSpaces is not a blog.  I don't care if you think the journalism is crappy.  I didn't write the press release.  I'm providing pieces for discussion.  If that's so hard to understand, you guys are more than welcome to ignore them.

I would appreciate discussions of the articles that do provide peer reviewed research to back them up.  This one does.  The article you guys were trashing yesterday was deleted because I made every effort to get a hold of some more information and the researcher said she might not be able to provide any, ever.  I will try my best to only post releases that have an associated paper.  However, if the press release doesn't provide a DOI you may have to go get the reference yourself.  I do have a real job and can't put in the time to go hunting down references for all of these.  If you ask nicely, I'll certainly try my best to go get you the information you want.


JanedeLartigue
UC Davis
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 2:34 pm CDT

Ditto what Will said.  If you're talking about the last one that CPP commented on about being crappy, then there was no critique to be trashed as far as I saw, it was exactly the same issue, he/she just keeps commenting that it's crap and that they shouldn't be posted here and that's the end of the discussion.  And in fact the last article was pulled because Brian got in contact with the authors and there wasn't really any published work to back up the press release, but this one actually has a published article related to it that can be read and commented on, so it's two completely different situations. I'm not arguing with you about the quality of the press releases, as will said, you kind of have to read around what the journo say which is rubbish journalism, my point is simply that CPP isn't giving us any decent discussion and is just being negative, that's all. The fact of the matter is that this is an interesting piece (at least perhaps to some people) if you bother to read the article and it could be interesting to actually have a discussion about how the press release could have been improved, instead of just having a go at this site for posting it.


JanedeLartigue
UC Davis
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 2:39 pm CDT

Well, Brian pretty much said what I was trying inarticulately to say there!

I really like Namnezia's idea of having a separate section for press releases, that way certain people can avoid them if they are bothered by it, and others who are interested in taking the time to think about how valid the information provided is by searching out the original article etc can have a decent discussion about it.

Since people started commenting on the news articles and press releases a bit more there have been some really good discussions.  I think the issues with journalists overhyping press releases etc is an important one and it would be good to evaluate these kinds of things (particularly as I'm thinking of going into science writing, this is all very interesting to me at least). Kind of like a journal club! I'll give CPP one thing, he did in fact spark a discussion amongst the rest of us! ; )


Tideliar
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 2:48 pm CDT

"You're missing the point of these news articles,"

Yeah, but Janede they're not news articles, they're press releases cobbled together by the humanities student in the press office. I can certainly see Pal & CPPs issue with this. We add authority to the articles by being a "science" website. A bare minimum should be something having a link to the original study. No data, no posting on LS.

Brian, if you want to keep this rotating stream of PR, then maybe we can relabel it to something like "From the INternet" or whatever (I'm total fucking shite at making up names...). Or..."For discussion"

I'd be inclined to add a header, and say that these are for discussion and might not contain links to the Per reviewed article. Also, maybe posting just a couple/day would work better for commenting? It's hard to build a commentariat when they cycle so quickly.

"The Dissection Room - here we post interesting PR and news articles sent in by readers. Remember, these aren't always critical commentaries of the orgiginal study - that's up to you, the reader. Join LabSpaces and help us dissect these articles and look at the science under the claim"

Comrade Physioprof

Guest Comment
Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 2:51 pm CDT

I'm "just being negative" for a very good reason: because copy/pasting grossly overblown press releases is a really foolish thing for a "science" Web site to do. If your standard for posting a press release is now that it refers to a published study, then shitcan the press release and write a brief summary of the actual published work.

PalMD

Guest Comment
Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:01 pm CDT

Will said:

The critique of what last one?

Exactly.  I discussed it here, but it went into the memory hole.


Arlenna
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:06 pm CDT

One of the problems with the press releases is that they are the most abundant, biggest focus thing showing up on your main page. I actually always have a hard time getting ot the blogs from the labspaces mainpage, because they're laid down on the side or through the "blogs" link rather than being clearly featured as the main content.

Unfortunately, even if it is unintentional, that contributes hugely to the perception that these press releases represent what you guys have to say about science.


Tideliar
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:08 pm CDT

Arlenna said:

One of the problems with the press releases is that they are the most abundant, biggest focus thing showing up on your main page. I actually always have a hard time getting ot the blogs from the labspaces mainpage, because they're laid down on the side or through the "blogs" link rather than being clearly featured as the main content.

Unfortunately, even if it is unintentional, that contributes hugely to the perception that these press releases represent what you guys have to say about science.

 

This.


JanedeLartigue
UC Davis
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:10 pm CDT

@Tideliar - OK then missing the point of the press releases, but perhaps I should have said missing the point of the comments section, that's more what I meant.  I guess that's the fundamental issue we are talking about, that these are different from the other news articles. I'm all for the suggestions you and Namnezia have, I think that's a really good idea to prevent people from getting sidetracked by the crappy journalism.

I may be coming across as an advocate for crap journalism here which is not at all what my point was.  The argument isn't whether the press releases are crap or not, it's whether they are valid pieces to put up for discussion, and I just happen to think they are.

@CPP - I get that you have 'a very good reason' for being negative, but the point is many other people think that the press releases have value (only when linked to a published article though, so I can understand the point about the piece yesterday, which as per your suggestion has in fact been taken down).


Namnezia
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:10 pm CDT

Arlenna said:

One of the problems with the press releases is that they are the most abundant, biggest focus thing showing up on your main page. I actually always have a hard time getting ot the blogs from the labspaces mainpage, because they're laid down on the side or through the "blogs" link rather than being clearly featured as the main content.

Unfortunately, even if it is unintentional, that contributes hugely to the perception that these press releases represent what you guys have to say about science.

 

I agree too. I like Tideliar's suggestion from earlier.

PalMD

Guest Comment
Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:19 pm CDT
I may be coming across as an advocate for crap journalism here which is not at all what my point was. The argument isn't whether the press releases are crap or not, it's whether they are valid pieces to put up for discussion, and I just happen to think they are.

There is no good argument for presenting raw press releases "for discussion". If that were the real purpose--rather than as filler to make the site look more 'active'--then you write something like, er, I do. Something that says, "hey, look at this crap that PR hacks send to me! Hi-larious and full of tasty crapitude!" If, as is suggested, posting 40 press releases per day (while presumably not getting paid by the PR dept) is burdensome if presented critically, then cut off the firehose.


Brian Krueger, PhD
Columbia University Medical Center
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:20 pm CDT

If you want the blogs, then go directly to the blogs page. http://www.labspaces.net/blogs

If you think one of the articles is complete bullshit, write a comment about it and it will be saved in the google cache forever.  I do not make the claim that these press releases are right or verified, I was hoping to wring that out in discussions with experts who visit the site.  The fact remains that a couple hundred thousand people a day get their news from places like ScienceDaily where discussions on these exact same press releases cannot occur.  I'm helping to provide a venue for those discussions to happen.  I'm glad you all feel so passionate about debunking bad science.  I am too! So let's discuss these releases, put the correct information out there, and maybe someone who hears about a broccoli cancer cure will do a google search and end up reading a well reasoned discussion of what's fact and what is fiction.

LabSpaces isn't about the Blogs, or the news, or the forum, it's about discussing and communicating science.  I'm not trying to put an emphasis on any one aspect of the site over the other.


Tideliar
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:32 pm CDT

PalMD said:

I may be coming across as an advocate for crap journalism here which is not at all what my point was. The argument isn't whether the press releases are crap or not, it's whether they are valid pieces to put up for discussion, and I just happen to think they are.

There is no good argument for presenting raw press releases "for discussion". If that were the real purpose--rather than as filler to make the site look more 'active'--then you write something like, er, I do. Something that says, "hey, look at this crap that PR hacks send to me! Hi-larious and full of tasty crapitude!" If, as is suggested, posting 40 press releases per day (while presumably not getting paid by the PR dept) is burdensome if presented critically, then cut off the firehose.

 

Like Ed Yong's comment, "If your version of journalism is regurgitating content with no commentary, then my RSS feed is a journalist". But, as BK says, the point is to get discussion going. I think the approach needs to be revised though...


Will
UC Davis
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:43 pm CDT

You can't possibly expect someone to read every paper and write a summary for it before posting it on here, that would take way too long.  It would mean that only a couple of pieces would get put up a day or they would be out of date and it would defy the point of having a news section.

However I do like the idea of putting them in a seperate place for discussion.


Arlenna
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:43 pm CDT

But Brian, as I said: even if you are not trying to put an emphasis on the press releases, they are emphasized by the current main page layout. They also get locked into place on the front lage by the "Popular" ranking somehow, since presumably people are reaching those releases on LabSpaces via Google or something so they get a lot of hits that don't necessarily correspond to actual LabSpaces user activity.

You might not think that the press releases seem over-conspicuous, but many of your users do--if your goal is to make a user-driven environment, then you should listen to their perceptions and opinions rather than holding so tight to what you imagined it would be like.


Will
UC Davis
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:44 pm CDT

Sorry PalMD I had not seen that.  I will go read it now.

PalMD

Guest Comment
Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:45 pm CDT
You can't possibly expect someone to read every paper and write a summary for it before posting it on here,

I absolutely expect it and so should you. You are forgetting that there is an option besides reading every article first and posting them all raw---not posting them at all. The PR depts can hire their own outlets. It makes you look like a shill.


JanedeLartigue
UC Davis
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:47 pm CDT

@PalMD Well I don't know what the point of putting the press releases up is because I don't run LabSpaces, I just read the blogs and articles.  I do find that the press releases and articles are interesting to comment on, in fact Will tried to start up a discussion about the science behind this one in an earlier post, so I personally think it has some value.  I agree with you that there is no point in just rehashing stuff, but I also think that there is a place (as Brian said) on here for people who don't necessarily want to write an entire blog about it, to talk about the science behind the press release.  I understand your point, I read your blog piece on it, and I can see both sides of the argument here.  But I do still think that commenting on the press releases is just as valuable as writing a blog piece on it.

PalMD

Guest Comment
Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:50 pm CDT
...but I also think that there is a place (as Brian said) on here for people who don't necessarily want to write an entire blog about it...

Yes, it's called "twitter".


Tideliar
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:51 pm CDT

"I agree with you that there is no point in just rehashing stuff, but I also think that there is a place (as Brian said) on here for people who don't necessarily want to write an entire blog about it, to talk about the science behind the press release."

You don't have to write an entire blog about it. It takes 5 mins to read the PR and determine if it's worth a shit. And it takes 5mis to find the article, read the abstract and determine if there is any correlation between the two. I odn't think we should be posting unfettered PR.

If someone has time by all means read the whole paper and write up a detailed precise about what's right/wrong. It's not a prerequisite The only prerequisite should be some kind of 'input', or else we're just aggregating PR pieces.


Tideliar
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 3:51 pm CDT

PalMD said:

...but I also think that there is a place (as Brian said) on here for people who don't necessarily want to write an entire blog about it...

Yes, it's called "twitter".

LMFAO


Will
UC Davis
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 4:06 pm CDT

I think I'm just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

This site brings all the recent news to you in one place so that you don't have to go and search for it yourself.  Most of the time there is a clear indication of where to find the article if you are interesied in reading more about it.  Personally I have found out about things going on outside my field that relate to what I am doing on this site and have given me ideas for collaborations and future work.

Why should I expect someone else to go and read articles and rehash them for me.  If I'm interested enough from the news piece, I go and read it myself.

I am generally more critical than most and find flaws in the data better than most, so I wouldn't believe a review of an article done by someone else anyway.  Especially if they were mass producing them and probably not paying any attention to detail.  So not only do I not expect people to go and read every paper and summarize it for me, but I would not pay any more attention to it then I would a PR.

Isis the Scientist

Guest Comment
Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 4:12 pm CDT

I agree with Arlenna.  Entirely.

Having these press releases as your main focus makes this site look exactly like the sites that steal my content and republish them as "aggregators."  You have an incredibly talented pool of bloggers here.  If you featured them ont he front page, they'd get more traffic.  Besides, aren't your press releases only getting 20-50 views (except when PP shows up)?

Republishing a press release without telling people it is a press release makes it seem as though this site is endorsing the science.  That's problematic with many of these releases.


Tideliar
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 4:12 pm CDT

"This site brings all the recent news to you in one place so that you don't have to go and search for it yourself"

once more from the top: It's not news, it's PR. Do you know the difference? News is delivered/created by journalists (in this case it could be bloggers working as 'science journalists'). It involves (or should) appreciation of the topic at hand and informed commentary and possible counterpoint. PR is mindless drivel compiled by underpaid, overworked humanities majors that tries to sell you something.

 

"Why should I expect someone else to go and read articles and rehash them for me.  If I'm interested enough from the news piece, I go and read it myself"

Yes, but you're also a scientist and that's not the general target of the 'readers' that BK is looking for. You/we are the people who critically examine the articles/PR published so that those with less skill and experience can understand what's going on. Right now that's not happening because A) there are too few commenters, and B) too many articles.

 

"I am generally more critical than most and find flaws in the data better than most, so I wouldn't believe a review of an article done by someone else anyway.  Especially if they were mass producing them and probably not paying any attention to detail.  So not only do I not expect people to go and read every paper and summarize it for me, but I would not pay any more attention to it then I would a PR."

With all due respect that is either profoundly arrogant or profoundly naive, and possibly both.


Brian Krueger, PhD
Columbia University Medical Center
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 4:51 pm CDT

I'm all for reworking the site to change the emphasis on the press releases.  I'm also open to ideas on how to better structure the layout to do that.  I have never said I'm married to the layout and if people think that the site is projecting the wrong emphasis then give me some ideas to make it more clear that the articles are up for discussion and not "certified valid."  I do think they provide a great basis for discussion and I'm kind of apalled that you guys think I post them to attract clicks.  That's just ridiculous.  I want this to be a forum for science discussion between experts and the public.

I understand that you all think that twitter is somehow this new media fountain of knowledge that has 5 million users.  How many people do you know that aren't on twitter?  A hell of a lot. How many doctors or scientists do you know that have a blog?  Exactly, not many.  I'm trying to provide a space for people not committed to maintaining a blog or dealing with twitter an opportunity to discuss science as experts.

CPP, if you'd like to join the grown ups in having a cool headed discussion without over the top trolling littered with profanity, I'll keep your posts on the site.  Until then, consider your posts non-existent.  You were doing so well too!

 


Tideliar
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 4:56 pm CDT

"The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it.  If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth:  if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.  ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859"

 

"We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values.  For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.  ~John F. Kennedy"

 

"Censorship sucks, Brian. ~Tideliar, 2010"


Gerty-Z
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 4:56 pm CDT

I agree with the sentiments of CPP to an extent, and can get on board with the points raised by Tideliar/Arlenna/Isis et al. I think that if we want to start discussions about science and broaden communication (which I do think is a fantastic goal) that perhaps press releases are not the best jumping off place.


Tideliar
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 4:57 pm CDT

And of course, Lenny motherfukken Bruce

"Take away the right to say "fuck" and you take away the right to say "fuck the government." "


Will
UC Davis
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 4:59 pm CDT

Tideliar please refrain from making things personal.  You may disagree with me, that is fine but there is no need to  revert to name calling.

 

You don't trust the press release, in the same way I would rather make my own mind up about the data rather than being spoon fed by someone else.  I was making the point that if I find the points are interesting I will go read the published article and make up my own mind about the conclusions and what they are saying irrespective of who wrote the piece that sparked my interest.

That is not to say that there would be no value in someone reviewing articles and having a discussion about it.  However by doing that you are limiting the number of people that will be interested by a piece and limiting how broad you can make the site.  I for example find it difficult to write anything worth reading about research in physics and would therefore selectively reduce my target audience.

 


Tideliar
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 5:19 pm CDT

Will said:

Tideliar please refrain from making things personal.  You may disagree with me, that is fine but there is no need to  revert to name calling.

 

This is the internet mate. You need a thicker skin than that. I'm not calling you names. I simply pointed out that what you were saying and the way you said it sounded arrogant and naive. Trust me, we are long way from name calling. I am invested in this discussion like you, and don't want to see it degenerate into a flamewar. Then aagin, I do love a good flamewar...

 

Will said:

You don't trust the press release, in the same way I would rather make my own mind up about the data rather than being spoon fed by someone else.

 

These are not the same thing. In my professional role I evaluate a lot of literature, I expect much as you do. I don't trust the press release because it is a press release. This is not the same thing as wanting to see raw data in a write-up. Furthermore, by your logic you don't read or trust review articles either?

 

Will said:

I was making the point that if I find the points are interesting I will go read the published article and make up my own mind about the conclusions and what they are saying irrespective of who wrote the piece that sparked my interest.

 

And I'm not disputing any of that. In fact that reinforces my point about us not being the target readership of "The Public". We are the target readership of "the experts". Some of us will take the follow-up reading one step further and post a comment or even write a blog piece on it.

 

Will said:

That is not to say that there would be no value in someone reviewing articles and having a discussion about it.  However by doing that you are limiting the number of people that will be interested by a piece and limiting how broad you can make the site.  I for example find it difficult to write anything worth reading about research in physics and would therefore selectively reduce my target audience.

 

Why would it reduce your target audience? The sheer fact that you've bothered to write something up should stimulate further discussion. It might be creative criticism of your evaluation if you're judged to be mistaken in your analysis, or it might be further discussion of the article in the perspective that you provide. Have faith in your abilities as scientist to write intelligent critiques outside your field of excellence.

Writing well for a lay audience takes more practice, but then one or other of the bloggers might lend a hand tightening up your prose for example, or helping you clarify a point you're trying to make. I'd be more than happy to offer that service.

And finally, if you're not an expert in physics and you're not comfortable writing it up, then don't. That doesn't change the fact that this would add significant value to the section of LabSpaces we're discussing here. There are plenty of people who are experts or at least experienced in multiple fields and disciplines already using the site. If we get a critical mass movement then this could snowball

Comrade PhysioProf

Guest Comment
Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 7:02 pm CDT

SpaceTimeLabCube Dude:

You're the one that needs to grow uppe. You're in complete denial about how amateurish the form and content of your Web site is, and you are hiding behind "that CPP is a profane troll" instead of facing reality.

Love,

CPP


Brian Krueger, PhD
Columbia University Medical Center
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 7:19 pm CDT
I'm the douche for saying I'm more than willing to change things on this site to better Foster discussions about science. Ok CPP. You got me. Anyone have a vinegar refill?

Will
UC Davis
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 7:20 pm CDT

hey my last comment did not post.  That's annoying I spent a long time wrting that post.

The gist of it was in response to Tideliar.


1) Fair enough I guess I could have gotten my point across better.

2) Actually I find that review articles often make mistakes with referencing/reading more into an original article than they should.  Often I cannot find what the review is referencing when I go and read the original article or they over-elaborate the point so that it is somewhat inaccurate. This is one of the reasons I prefer people to reference the original article rather than a review.

3) This is the main point.  I did not actually realize that this website was aimed at the general public rather than at scientists.  Mainly because there are predominantly scientists on here.  If that is in fact the target audience then I completely agree that the press releases should be taken off, because as someone else said by putting them on here it gives credence to them.  If the site is aimed at scientists then leave them on and let people make up their own minds, as I said I have found some interesting articles that are unrelated to my field that have sparked ideas for future work and collaborations.

4) I think that there was a mix up.  I thought that people wanted Brian to critically assess all the journals.  This is why I said that I would not be interested in that.  If only one person was trying to get through all this material you would a) reduce the number of people that came on the website, b) limit the broadness of the conversations c) reduce the number of articles and d) would mean that each article was not reviewed by someone in the field and probably rushed.

However it sounds like you are suggesting that bloggers tackle their individual fields and try to make it more accessible to the public.  That really would be an innovative and interesting site.  In order for that to work the blogs need to appear at the forefront.

The fact that I had not realized that this was the aim is important because it means that it is not clear as it is at the moment and therefore changes do need to be made.

 


becca
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 7:32 pm CDT

A few humble suggestions:

*put the blogs above the news, or split the page vertically

*have a page with both blog posts and news stories ordered by number of recent comments, this helps people find the most active conversations quickly

*in the form for submitting a news story, provide a place where it's obvious that the user's summary is welcome (I was squeamish about copy-pasting, and it was a small part of the reason I only suggested one news story). There is a definite need for those of us without blogs to write more than 140 characters on something and put it out there.

*I am torn on the issue of censorship. Is there a way to allow users to set CPP's posts to invisible, so you can only get them if you click on them? Or make it so guest comments can be thumbs-downed, and for any old comment that gets enough thumbs down to go invisible? I've seen this type of thing on other sites.

I see that as the equivalent of giving a kid washable crayons for writing on the wall instead of spraypaint, more than a ball-gag. *insert inappropriate comment about CPP and voluntary vs. involuntary ball-gags here*

 

*people who are themselves incapable of, or assume others are incapable of, ciritically reading press releases are completely unfathomable to me.  I mean, seriously. Weren't any of you raised on "believe none of what you hear and only half of what you read"? And isn't it self-explanatory that press releases count as something you 'hear'?


Dr Becca, Ph.D.
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 7:42 pm CDT

Whether the goal of LS is to be "for the public" or "for scientists" is irrelevant to the role the press releases play. As I think someone mentioned above, any random person who googles "vegetables" and "cancer" or whatever could stumble upon this press release here on LS. And that person might believe the information in the press release, because they read it on a Science Website. Even if there are commenters who say that the study is bullshit it probably won't matter to that perosn, because it's presented as News, while commenters are just random people on the internet.

 


JanedeLartigue
UC Davis
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 8:03 pm CDT

Dr Becca if we say that it is for the public then we need to completely change the site and write blogs about our fields of knowledge for non scientists and remove the press releases.  If we say its for scientists then it doesn't have to change because if the gerenal public don't find it here they will find it on the other sites.  The press release is out there, you can't stop that.

So in my opinion it is the crucial point.

 


Brian Krueger, PhD
Columbia University Medical Center
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 8:35 pm CDT

I think there's a way to present the press releases and tag them in a way that verifies or refutes their validity.  I don't think removing them completely is beneficial because the information is already out there and we have the opportunity to set the record straight.  The problem is that I don't have expertise in all areas to verify their validity.

This is a chicken vs egg situtation.  I want to get short expert criticism of the press releases, but the site isn't big enough yet for that to happen on every article.  Someday it will be.  Maybe I can make expert accounts here and verify user credentials?  And then let the expert ratings determine the "This is bullshit science" or "this is good stuff, read it" tagging?  It would be cool to sort the releases in categories like "The good", "The bad", "The marginal."  I could also only highlight "The Good" on the main page and have a new section below in a "Waiting for validation" section.  There are some good ideas floating around in here and I'm excited to get working on a system that helps set the record straight on the science.

I totally understand where PalMD, CPP, Isis, and company are coming from.  I really do. I just want to find a way to get the right information out to people in the face of all of the misinformation out there.

Comrade PhysioProf

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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 8:44 pm CDT

I just want to find a way to get the right information out to people in the face of all of the misinformation out there.

TimeSpaceCubeLab Dude:

The purveyors of breathless press releases are not having any trouble getting their information out there. You copy/pasting their overblown senationalist shit is not helping to "get the right information out to people in the face of all the misinformation out there".

Love, CPP


Tideliar
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 9:20 pm CDT
@BK: that's a good plan and I have some ideas about how to do that. A web forum I play in does user "tags" on the user profile to let you know when someone is offering 'expert' opinion.

@CPP: see that's fukken trollinge. Concersation moved on since your last butthurt.

Genomic Repairman
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 9:33 pm CDT
TL kill the thread! Should we segregate published news from the pr? Should we stop posting pr? Should I stop drinking and go to bed? Who the fuck knows. We'll figure it out I guess. I gotta go piss in a fake bush excuse me

Tideliar
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Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 11:49 pm CDT

GR - the thread must live! This is some awesome suggestions and shit. Some comments are a little...more...vigorous than others, but thisis like using the internet hivemind!

 

Now. as to your other questions. Yes, no, twice, only with a nosebag of fine fishscale cocaine and yes, I told my priest.

The rest is on you./ I suggest taking fake, pee covered,  bush with you for posterity. Mount it. On the wall.

 

 

Not like that son...


GMP
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Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 1:37 pm CDT

Re PalMD's post and comments here and there...

Anybody volunteering to vet all posts in their specialty? I didn' think so.

Gotta love destructive people. Quick to crap of the initiative of others, nowhere to be found with a creative alternative.

 

Isis the Scientist

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Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 1:54 pm CDT

Oh snap!  Passive Aggressive Prof strikes again!!!!

I think there have been plenty of solutions offered in this thread.  How about making this section as press releases instead of news and featuring it less prominently?


GMP
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Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 7:42 pm CDT

Oh snap!  Passive Aggressive Prof strikes again!!!!

I guess it's been a few weeks since the Bored Bitchy Goddess called me names. She has clearly missed me.

I think there have been plenty of solutions offered in this thread.

People who wrote thoughtful comments with creative suggestions are not the people I refer to as desctructive.

Isis the Scientist

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Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 8:15 pm CDT

I think this is the first time I have called you anything other than the name you've give yourself.  I suspect it is because I am too busy worrying about who is dating who in the lab so that I can support "diversity" to come up with creative nicknames.

 

You crack me up.


GMP
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Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 10:43 pm CDT

Shouldn't you be shopping for shoes or something?

Isis the Scientist

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Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 10:48 pm CDT

With your mom.

Shall we continue? 


Tideliar
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Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 11:49 pm CDT

Laydeeees and Yyyeeentlemen...welcome the main event, we are at LabSpaces and we are LIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!

In the Red corner, GMP, she's a blogging phenom, new on the scene but not new to the Science! She has her own blog and she isn't afraid to speak to her mind.

In the Blue Corner we have Dr. Isis, longtime bogger, renowned Scibling, blogging heavyweight and Goddess of Shoes!

You know this is a grudge match. You know this is a fight to the last word.

This.
Is.
The.
Main.
EVEEEENNNNT!

 

Ladies, your referee for the evening is Dr. Brian Krueger. I do not expect a good clean fight, and I do not expect anyone to beg for mercy. At the bell, bring down the fire....

DWH

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Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 12:10 am CDT

Christ, PalMD and CPP need to lighten up. 

Yes protect us all from crappy journalism. We so need your help. People can't be expected to think for themselves.

Egotistical control freaks

 

Isis the Scientist

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Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 10:32 am CDT

This is why I *heart* you Tideliar.


Dr Becca, Ph.D.
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Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 10:59 am CDT

Isis the Scientist said:

This is why I *heart* you Tideliar.

Seconded.

FWDALIOTI

Guest Comment
Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 1:38 pm CDT

Isis the Scientist said:

With your mom.

Shall we continue? 

I think a 10 year old got on your computer and replied for you.

 

 


Dr. O
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Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 2:01 pm CDT

Dr Becca, Ph.D. said:

Isis the Scientist said:

This is why I *heart* you Tideliar.

Seconded.

Thirded.

Isabel

Guest Comment
Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 2:41 pm CDT

"Oh snap!  Passive Aggressive Prof strikes again!!!!"

What does this even mean? Isis the hater of low class white people was offended by something apparently.

Goddess (what does this mean I've often wondered- I can't believe people even find it amusing) of shoes or common SITC trend follower? "Feminist" who encourages half the population, especially the impressionable young women who frequent her site, to feel more "powerful" by strutting around like ponies in high heeled shoes (which restrict normal human movement and can lead to injuries and deformities) all day.

Interestingly, the clique that is rabidly attacking LS had no problem with their good friend and co-blogger Drugmoney linking to this crap (below) from his SB site recently. When I complained that it was spreading lies equivalent to the "woo" these guys whine about constantly PalM said "aww Isabel" or some other condescending crap and DM nastily replied that it doesn't mean he agrees with it etc. So what if it was only twittered, I heard about it and linked to it from a science web site. The post is full of misinformation without proper citation. I don't see how it could have been valuable even as an opinion piece since it is based on unsubstantiated claims. Why muddy the waters of the cannabis legalization debate by calling attention to pieces that regurgitate this propaganda? I guess it's evil to encourage people to eat broccoli, because people are so stupid they will automatically think you mean that eating a big plate of the stuff will cure their late stage cancer. But it IS okay to tell people smoking pot causes cancer, leads to physical debilitation, speeds up the aging process, etc.

Jason Goldman of science blogs also read this article (by a devout Christian colege student who also writes about saving herself for marriage and other standard lines, to the degree that it's hard to tell if she's even a real college student imo) and called it a great article. really?

Oh and Becca, by your voting technicque someone like me who at least tries to keep these megalomaniacs on their toes would be invisible (at least judging by the lack of support I get from other readers). Would I at least know I was invisible so I could stop bothering?

Here's a portion of what DM linked to with the approval of all his anti-woo buddies (if you want the link you'll have to go to his twitter page I refuse to link to this crap anymore):

In case you weren’t paying attention in Health class when the side-effects of this drug were gone over, here’s a quick crash course:

Marijuana side effects include physical problems like breathing difficulties and deteriorating physical abilities.Despite a popular belief, marijuana side effects speed up the heart, blood and breathing rate. The body is taxed more and this speeds up the aging process just like methamphetamines do. The marijuana side effects from this extra exertion on the body include a higher risk for lung cancer, heart attacks and strokes.When marijuana is used habitually, the natural chemical balance of the brain is disrupted affecting the pleasure centers and regulatory systems. The ability to learn, remember and adapt quickly to changes is impaired by marijuana use.People who drive after using marijuana are nearly twice as likely to be involved in a fatal car crash. (Side note: under Prop 19, getting behind the wheel of a car just after using marijuana is perfectly permissible)It is also what is referred to as a “gateway” drug.  The more you use, the more you have to use in order to experience the high.  This often leads people to take up other drugs in order to achieve the high they are no longer experiencing from marijuana.It is not the same as alcohol.  You can drink a little bit of alcohol without getting completely trashed.  The entire point of using marijuana is to get high.

 

FWDALISISOTI

Guest Comment
Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 3:02 pm CDT

To Isabel,

 BRAVO

MonkeyPox

Guest Comment
Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 7:18 pm CDT

I have no idea what that all that stuff isabel said was.  Maybe it was greg laden?


Tideliar
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Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 8:08 pm CDT

"Isis the hater of low class white people was offended by something apparently"

Uh, thanks for defending our site, I think but, um TL;DR, LOL WHUT and can haz racebating? Make a point by all means, but if you wanna get down and racist on shit then this is the wrong fucking place to do it.


Tideliar
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Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 8:13 pm CDT

"someone like me who at least tries to keep these megalomaniacs on their toes"

 

One last LMFAO on that one too. Thank you guardian of the internet from saving us from the horrid people. Thankfully you post anonymously so, you're like batman or something right?

Isabel

Guest Comment
Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 8:27 pm CDT

I'm not saving YOU from anyone Tideliar dear, you are on your own, sorry! We are talking about keeping it scientific right? People in the Sb clique count too right? Who else calls them on their hypocrisy on a regular basis? Also it's fun (and funny) to expose them for the hypocrites they are - their sanctimonious tirades are hard to take otherwise.

"Make a point by all means, but if you wanna get down and racist on shit then this is the wrong fucking place to do it."

Who dragged the racism (diversity) argument (grudge) onto the thread? Hint: it wasn't me.

btw, do you also come down hard on wild claims about broccoli, but give wild claims about cannabis a pass?

Monkeypox don't worry, this is all way over your head.

:)


Tideliar
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Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 9:23 pm CDT

*YAWN*

arrogant. elitist. racist. troll.

Isabel

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Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 10:03 pm CDT

Look, I don't want to seem to be going overboard but I was pissed about the fact that when I complained just the other day about Drugmonkey linking to that outrageous misinformation about cannabis I was dissed by both PalMD and DM.

So it's just fucked up that PalMD is over here complaining so sanctimoniously about brocolli misinormation. Jeez, if that's your definition of racist I'd like to know what drugs you're on.


Brian Krueger, PhD
Columbia University Medical Center
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Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 8:02 am CDT

The hypocrisy bit is pretty interesting, Isabel, but not all that surprising.  It only makes them look like trolling internet bullies.

Regardless, I think some good changes are going to come about as a result of the discussions that have gone on here with people who have offered constructive suggestions on how to better highlight the press releases as topics of discussion.  It wasn't obvious before and I can see how a newcomer to the site might see the posting of the press releases as an endorsement.

We'll get it all figured out for the better.  Thanks for stopping by.


becca
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Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 8:02 am CDT

Isabel- I, for one, enjoy many your contributions and would not have voted against the vast majority of your comments.

For example, I think your point about the scientific integrity (or lack thereof) of blogs DM is highlighting to be very interesting.

Also, for clarification, the comments would all still *be* there, you'd just have to click on them to see them. So if someone is casually skimming the thread or knows their blood pressure will be elevated by a certain person, they don't have to deal with the distraction. And yes you'd have to be able to see it- I see a big part of the whole point as being seeing how other people feel about your comments so you can adjust.


Tideliar
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Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 8:37 am CDT

"So it's just fucked up that PalMD is over here complaining so sanctimoniously about brocolli misinormation."

Sorry to hear that. Don't assume I have any clue of what you're talking about, and we'll get along fine.

"Jeez, if that's your definition of racist I'd like to know what drugs you're on."

You comment, "Isis the hater of low class white people was offended by something apparently.", in my opinion is racist. It apparently wasn't meant to be, but I fail to see how highlighting Isis' cultural background has any relevence to the 'cross blog trolling'

Isabel

Guest Comment
Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 11:40 am CDT

First of all tideliar, I don't know how that comment could be construed as racist. And I in no way highlighted anyone's cultural background. But I could see why you were offended sorry.

As I said I didn't start it, but Isis' second comment to GMP above refering to 'diversity' reminded me that she and her clique are still on GMP's case over some perceived lack of correct, PC sensitivity in a post GMP made a while back about diversity in her lab. A number of blog posts and lot of snide remarks were made as if GMP is some kind of racist. But believe me  Isis has done much worse, and intentionally so, regarding rednecks and white people who she regularly disses (even though she appears to be white).

I find comments like 'even the sun hates white people' made by her co-blogger on Isis' site to be offensive in the extreme, and certainly not funny at all. Please don't get me started with the redneck story, and how Isis wrote her 'you might be a redneck post' complete with images of toothless 'rednecks' draped in confederate flags AFTER it was explained in the comments to a Bikemonkey post that redneck is an offensive term, especially when used to imply racism. If neccessary becca can fill in the details.(thanks for your comments becca)

It would just be nice to have some corner of the internet where we didn't have to 'worship' some dumb Carrie Bradshaw wannabe or pretend that we find it amusing that other people do. Or even hear about it.

PalMD

Guest Comment
Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 12:24 pm CDT

It only makes them look like trolling internet bullies

 

Oh NOES!!!  TEH POOR BROCKLEEZ!!!!

DWH

Guest Comment
Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 2:46 pm CDT

 

It only makes them look like trolling internet bullies

Oh NOES!!!  TEH POOR BROCKLEEZ!!!!

How can someone with such poor reading comprehension be a doctor? Don't think Isabel could be more clear.  Obviously you are not trying to be part of the discussion.

arrogant. elitist. racist. troll.

 


Dr. O
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Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 3:43 pm CDT

Really not sure where the racist stuff came from since the last time I checked out this thread. FYI, I have joked plenty about my family and I being "rednecks" (my parents do have hunting rifle Christmas ornaments and my brother a gun rack in the back of his truck ;), and I don't know many "true" rednecks that find this characterization all that offensive.

I do think some of the critiques (even the more brutal ones - ahem, CPP :) are being taken further out of context than was (maybe) intended. Also, as Brian pointed out, some good changes are already happening (and still on the way) because of these discussions. I never really had a problem with the news portion of the site, but I can understand the issues others are pointing out with the press releases and design. I'm sure Brian and LS will never please everyone, but he does have the best intentions of making this a great place for science discussion and works hard to achieve that goal.

Now, as humorous as this thread was to read through a couple of days ago, it's getting kind of old now. Can we move on and talk about the magical powers of broccoli? Or maybe to the next press release???

Isis the Scientist

Guest Comment
Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 3:49 pm CDT

Lab Spaces, I am glad Isabel is your probelm now.

Isabel

Guest Comment
Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 3:54 pm CDT

Well gee sure Dr. O, now that you've straightened us all out on the offensiveness (or lack of it) in calling someone a redneck, even with the assumption that it = racist. Interesting that you and your family would not find this offensive. That was the point, and the point that Isis was making, that it is perfectly reasonable to assume.

yeah, I know it was so much more fun when we were all laughing about how OMG!! Isis is the goddess of shoes!!! Sorry to be such a downer, pointing out the hypocrsisy and all. Yeah let's all move on everyone, Dr. O is bored!

Isabel

Guest Comment
Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 3:55 pm CDT

Um, problem?


Tideliar
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Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 4:31 pm CDT

Isabel said:

Well gee sure Dr. O, now that you've straightened us all out on the offensiveness (or lack of it) in calling someone a redneck, even with the assumption that it = racist. Interesting that you and your family would not find this offensive. That was the point, and the point that Isis was making, that it is perfectly reasonable to assume.

yeah, I know it was so much more fun when we were all laughing about how OMG!! Isis is the goddess of shoes!!! Sorry to be such a downer, pointing out the hypocrsisy and all. Yeah let's all move on everyone, Dr. O is bored!

Jesus fucking Christ put a sock in it and stop finding offence everywhere. Dr. O was perfectly reasonable and wasn't even aiming anything at you. Are you this fucking touchy in real life too?


JanedeLartigue
UC Davis
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Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 4:41 pm CDT

Dr. O said:

I do think some of the critiques (even the more brutal ones - ahem, CPP :) are being taken further out of context than was (maybe) intended. Also, as Brian pointed out, some good changes are already happening (and still on the way) because of these discussions. I never really had a problem with the news portion of the site, but I can understand the issues others are pointing out with the press releases and design. I'm sure Brian and LS will never please everyone, but he does have the best intentions of making this a great place for science discussion and works hard to achieve that goal.

Now, as humorous as this thread was to read through a couple of days ago, it's getting kind of old now. Can we move on and talk about the magical powers of broccoli? Or maybe to the next press release???

Nicely put Dr O, my sentiments exactly! I think this thread definitely needs killing now, it's getting a little too personal and nasty.  It's all about carrots this week anyway, broccoli is so passe dahlings!

Isabel

Guest Comment
Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 6:30 pm CDT

Why are you and Dr. O even here if you are bored??? Don't you have anything better to do? I swear, people are such fucking control freaks!

Jeez, yeah it is totally rude to comment on what other people should be discussing, I mean who cares? Why not just move on yourself? And yes, she did quite rudely suggest I was making a big deal over nothing with her "FYI" redneck dismissal. What relevance did that have to anything?

I thought the hypocrisy and cliquey-ness was extremely relevant.

Anyway, I didn't realize your collective required everyone to continue participating even when they become bored, and that everyone must end a conversation when it gets too controversial and "unpleasant" as if we are at a cocktail party or something. It's no big deal for me one way or the other if you want to go back to your pleasant chit-chat.

Tideliar, you are kind of an abusive asshole anyway.

Goodbye.

Comrade PhysioProf

Guest Comment
Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 6:38 pm CDT

Um, problem?

LOON ALERT!


Tideliar
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Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 6:47 pm CDT

Oh hai Issie,

 


Thomas Joseph
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Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 10:47 pm CDT

Drama Llama.


Suzy
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Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 11:56 am CDT

Isabel brings up many good points that go unaddressed by the people who started this whole discussion. She pointed out their hypocrisy and they had a chance to explain why what they do on their blogs is a valid discussion of science and what Brian does here is not.

Instead they resort to grade school comebacks that are neither helpful nor conducive to discussion. And then criticism of the site design, which has absolutely nothing to do with this topic, were thrown in as well. So childish.

And because Isabel keeps pressing the point, trying to get them to answer the real issue, others want her to just shut up?

I don't get it. I'd like to know why DM and PalMD think its ok to do exactly the same thing on their own sites and its not "crappy journalism". 

Isabel- I applaud you for standing up in the face of so much opposition.

 


Tideliar
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Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 1:58 pm CDT

Meh, she snapped at Dr O over nothing and comes across like a troll when she does it. The chance to rebutt Pal etc was lost when that happened.

Thats why i dropped a few grade levels to LOLCats and snark.


Suzy
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Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 2:38 pm CDT

She snapped because people are snapping at her. And no one has answered the main question. Instead insults are hurled at her for even bringing it up. I am glad she is challenging them.

The chance to rebutt Pal was lost when he went with the ever so classy and intelligent remark:

Oh NOES!!!  TEH POOR BROCKLEEZ!!!!

Is he not capable of adult conversation? Or perhaps he doesn't want to admit she's right.

Isabel

Guest Comment
Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 2:40 pm CDT

"Meh, she snapped at Dr O over nothing and comes across like a troll when she does it."

Verbally abusive prick.

Yep, saying I "snapped" and making me out to be a crazy troll is standard sexism 101. Fucking misogynist. I was just a little sarcastic and I already explained to you why she was actually rude in coming in and calling for an immediate end to the conversation and dismissing one of my concerns with some random personal anecdote which didn't even make sense- she really doesn't mind if we automatically assume her family is racist because they refer to themselves as rednecks? Really?

"The chance to rebutt Pal etc was lost when that happened."

Right, "the chance to rebutt Pal" would not have been lost by killing the thread moving on to another conversation.

But yeah you are right a chance was lost. They are off the hook now, as usual.

Isabel

Guest Comment
Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 2:51 pm CDT

Oh, and to clarify the sexism charge- I don't make this lightly or bring it up very often.

Sure, I bet you call guys crazy trolls too. But the difference is in those cases they probably are acting like crazy trolls. Calling women who say things people may not want to hear 'crazy' or implying they are unhinged i.e. "snapping" or "touchy" and "finding offence everywhere" (your earlier comment above) are all standard sexist lines used to dismiss something a woman is saying.


Tideliar
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Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 3:18 pm CDT

Jade Ed said:

She snapped because people are snapping at her. And no one has answered the main question. Instead insults are hurled at her for even bringing it up. I am glad she is challenging them.

The chance to rebutt Pal was lost when he went with the ever so classy and intelligent remark:

Oh NOES!!!  TEH POOR BROCKLEEZ!!!!

Is he not capable of adult conversation? Or perhaps he doesn't want to admit she's right.

@Jade: That I do not know. You're right. It did derail quickly, and perhaps unfairly.

@Isabel: Welcome to the internet, I'd suggest not taking offence so easily and stop assuming the worst in others' motives. But I think you'll probably just slander me again.


JanedeLartigue
UC Davis
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Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 3:33 pm CDT

Isabel said:

Why are you and Dr. O even here if you are bored??? Don't you have anything better to do? I swear, people are such fucking control freaks!

Jeez, yeah it is totally rude to comment on what other people should be discussing, I mean who cares? Why not just move on yourself? And yes, she did quite rudely suggest I was making a big deal over nothing with her "FYI" redneck dismissal. What relevance did that have to anything?

I thought the hypocrisy and cliquey-ness was extremely relevant.

Anyway, I didn't realize your collective required everyone to continue participating even when they become bored, and that everyone must end a conversation when it gets too controversial and "unpleasant" as if we are at a cocktail party or something. It's no big deal for me one way or the other if you want to go back to your pleasant chit-chat.

Tideliar, you are kind of an abusive asshole anyway.

Goodbye.

I have to agree that you did snap unnecessarily Isabel. I'm all for you calling Pal and CPC and others over their hypocrisy and standing up to them and totally agree with Jade that you made some good points that they refuse to address, but no one can say anything without getting some of your abuse.  You have to admit it has gotten kind of pointless, the people who you actually want to respond aren't responding to you and are just leaving pathetic, juvenile responses.  It pisses me off just as much as it pisses you off, believe me. I've had a similar experience on another blogging site recently, they don't bother to actually have an intellectual conversation with you about your comments but just pick you up on stupid little stuff, belittle you and tell you that they're right, you're wrong and that's all there is to say about it. As Tideliar said, welcome to the internet I guess, though I don't get why people can't have grown up conversations without deteriorating into personal insults and oneupmanship. It's bloody frustrating, but I think the point Dr O (though I can't speak for her) and I were trying to make is that no one wants to hear a bunch of back and forth insults between you and Pal/CPP, it's not particularly nice. Until they have something useful to say for themselves then it might just be worthwhile dropping it.


Suzy
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Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 4:16 pm CDT

@Isabel- I understand what you are saying. If you register for this site, we can carry on a separate discussion offline. Or you can DM me on twitter. I can share more with you but not in this thread.

Tideliar isn't sexist. He's a good guy. I don't believe his comments were related to you being a woman. 

@JanedeLartigue- good post. Exactly my feeling. My feeling with Dr. O's post was that same intention.

Truly it is just trolling when people come here to start a shitstorm and then leave. Isabel, no matter how obvious you make their hypocrisy, they won't be able to defend it, so we can't expect it. It is enough to bring it to people's attention, so that we know the caliber of person we are dealing with.

 


Will
UC Davis
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Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 6:48 pm CDT

Has this thread officially died now?  I was enjoying reading the banter.

Comrade PhysioProf

Guest Comment
Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 6:52 pm CDT

Loonabel is a known Internet loon. Those who perceive Loonabel as being put upon by some nasty-asse douchebagges are unaware of Loonabel's history of perseveration on a small number of people and one topic. For this reason, she has been banned from several blogges. My blogge embraces the Internet phenomenon that is Loonabel, but not every blogge does.

Isabel

Guest Comment
Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 8:29 pm CDT

Who said I even took offense at anything Tideliar? THAT "too sensitive" assumption is way overused toward women who someone is trying to silence. I rarely bring up the sexist angle, but got a real bad feeling from your attacks. I just think you are kind of an ass now sorry. Telling ME to shut up? And I didn't slander anyone. If anyone has snapped on this thread it is you, repeatedly. Everyone thinks its cute, kinda like it's cute when CPP swears. I think you were rude and abusive, as CPP's ridiculous post above is. I have bben banned from exactly one blog, based partially on his lies. The internet is not some magic place where it's okay to be an ass to people. What a ridiculous thing to say.

"insults between you and Pal/CPP"

I was making clear points, what insults between me and CPP and Pal? I was hardly trading insults. Furthermore, I didn't call anybody a loon or too sensitive or tell them to put a sock in it. I made arguments and tried to hold their feet to the fire. yeah threads die, and this one would have so what? Why the need for the big dismissive (implying I was making a mountain out of a molehill) announcement?

"Really not sure where the racist stuff came from"

Isis made the first snide remark about diversity to GMP based on her history of attacking GMP for supposedly racist remarks. Maybe the thread derailed when Isis came on the scene?

Why didn't you and Dr. O just leave if you were bored? Why the need to make an announcement that we need to go have another conversation? Why didn't you just leave? I am really curious about this.

Isabel

Guest Comment
Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 8:40 pm CDT

"Isabel, no matter how obvious you make their hypocrisy, they won't be able to defend it, so we can't expect it. It is enough to bring it to people's attention, so that we know the caliber of person we are dealing with."

I honestly did not expect more, just trying to bring their hypocrisy into the light. But also Isis' regarding the racism charges. The last thing I said before Dr. O condemned the thread was explaining my comment that apparently upset Tideliar. I never traded any insults or snapped at anyone. No one has tried to defend Dr. O's dismissing of my comment about Isis' redneck post implying I was making a big deal over nothing. It was just rude, sorry. Then I challenged her assumption and controlling need to end the thread I was attacked. Someone who is not me "snapped". Let's not start inventing things about me exchanging insults etc.


Tideliar
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Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 9:20 am CDT

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