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Post Archive
2014 (0)2010 (241)
December (20)

Have a little personality on Friday...
Friday, December 10, 2010

Thursday is going to be epic...
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Good Night, and Good Luck
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Ask Genomic RepairMom...Child Birth
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Wednesday is definitely a rollercoaster
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12 Months of Blogging Meme
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LabSpaces Fantasy Football Challenge: Week 13
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Don't Run Around On A Tuesday
Tuesday, December 7, 2010

A rhetorical question and science fail...
Monday, December 6, 2010

Sue
Monday, December 6, 2010

It definitely doesn't feel like summer...
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A Friday Recipe... Stuffed Jalapenos
Friday, December 3, 2010

A Friday morning haiku for you...
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Friday better not be your time of dying...
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Music Warz--Fuck all you emos--Punk is where its at...
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Is this a sign of things to come...
Thursday, December 2, 2010

Speaking to the next generation...
Thursday, December 2, 2010

Apparently we must have used hypocritical evangelical coders...
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Have an Unbelievable Thursday
Wednesday, December 1, 2010

Don't ge a Gigolo on Wednesday, its just not right.
Wednesday, December 1, 2010
November (44)

LabSpaces Fantasy Football Challenge: Week 12
Tuesday, November 30, 2010

It Might Get Loud On Tuesday
Tuesday, November 30, 2010

Do you know what the Spellcheck button is?
Tuesday, November 30, 2010

Update: I think I'm dying...Science in Motion...
Monday, November 29, 2010

Feel The Noise On a Monday
Monday, November 29, 2010

The jail story...
Wednesday, November 24, 2010

Don't be talking that shit on a Wednesday..
Wednesday, November 24, 2010

The dark danger and human cost of drug development
Tuesday, November 23, 2010

LabSpaces Fantasy Football Challenge: Week 11
Tuesday, November 23, 2010

Thrift Store T Shirt Tuesday
Tuesday, November 23, 2010

Request for Reprint...Should I put on my throwback jersey too?
Monday, November 22, 2010

Moving Boxes, we aren't going a damn place...
Monday, November 22, 2010

Does your brain feel like its going to Pop on a Monday?
Monday, November 22, 2010

Friday Wrap-Up and Links
Friday, November 19, 2010

Believe Me, Its Friday
Friday, November 19, 2010

An Open Letter To The Guy Who Tried To Mug Me...
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Who the hell said it was Thursday?
Thursday, November 18, 2010

Ask Genomic RepairMom...Retractions.
Wednesday, November 17, 2010

Are you in the house?
Wednesday, November 17, 2010

Pay me fuckers
Tuesday, November 16, 2010

LabSpaces Fantasy Football Challenge: Week 10
Tuesday, November 16, 2010

Don't Feed the Animals
Tuesday, November 16, 2010

A Tuesday Morning Book Review...
Tuesday, November 16, 2010

On which I make my return
Monday, November 15, 2010

One of the best discussions on Climate Change...Ever.
Monday, November 15, 2010

Guess who's back?
Monday, November 15, 2010

Lets keep on Rocking on a Friday...
Friday, November 12, 2010

Don't Rock the Boat on a Thursday
Thursday, November 11, 2010

Don't get too Hooked on Wednesday
Wednesday, November 10, 2010

Don't Wine on a Tuesday
Tuesday, November 9, 2010

Caribbean Monday
Monday, November 8, 2010

I'm out...
Monday, November 8, 2010

We call this a teachable moment...
Friday, November 5, 2010

Can't help that its Friday
Friday, November 5, 2010

A comparative study on pain medication reactions (n=2)
Thursday, November 4, 2010

Dear students applying for fellowships...
Thursday, November 4, 2010

Don't be Tempted on a Thursday...
Thursday, November 4, 2010

Ask Genomic RepairMom...Elections
Wednesday, November 3, 2010

Working it out from home on Wednesday...
Wednesday, November 3, 2010

LabSpaces Fantasy Football: Week 8
Tuesday, November 2, 2010

Hope you find Satisfaction on a Tuesday...
Tuesday, November 2, 2010

Tales of the Genomic Repairman: DNS
Monday, November 1, 2010

The fall of Agamemnon and the rise of Ajax: Is the PI being cheap?
Monday, November 1, 2010

Don't be Trippin on a Monday...unless you want to.
Monday, November 1, 2010
October (47)

Is the PI being cheap?
Friday, October 29, 2010

Friday Save
Friday, October 29, 2010

Nobel Prize Blunder...
Thursday, October 28, 2010

Don't be gray on a Thursday...
Thursday, October 28, 2010

Be a Wiz on a Wednesday
Wednesday, October 27, 2010

Ask Genomic RepairMom.... Vaccines
Tuesday, October 26, 2010

Things learned from my Society meeting...
Tuesday, October 26, 2010

LabSpaces Fantasy Football: Week 7
Tuesday, October 26, 2010

Attack my Site...I'm Gonna Knock You Out...
Tuesday, October 26, 2010

Write, write, write...
Monday, October 25, 2010

Hold on I'm Coming to play you some music on a Monday...
Monday, October 25, 2010

Get off this Friday...
Friday, October 22, 2010

Dear Graduate Student, let me list the reasons why I shall beat you with a stick...
Thursday, October 21, 2010

Slow down, you don't have to Run on a Thursday...
Thursday, October 21, 2010

Could you be loved on a Wednesday...
Wednesday, October 20, 2010

Ask Genomic RepairMom...Big Bang Theory...
Wednesday, October 20, 2010

It was only a matter of time before I got off my ass...
Tuesday, October 19, 2010

LabSpaces Fantasy Football: Week 6
Tuesday, October 19, 2010

Is Everything Zen on a Tuesday?
Tuesday, October 19, 2010

10 Commandments of Poster Presentations...
Tuesday, October 19, 2010

Shout it out on Monday
Monday, October 18, 2010

Pinch me its Friday...
Friday, October 15, 2010

Donor's Choose: Give me your lunchmoney!
Thursday, October 14, 2010

So I know I slagged off on a vendor but now its time to give one props...
Thursday, October 14, 2010

Did you see Fireflies on a Thursday?
Thursday, October 14, 2010

New Series: Ask Genomic RepairMom...Stem Cells
Wednesday, October 13, 2010

Make Wednesday A Magic Moment...
Wednesday, October 13, 2010

The Tribe of Science loses a Warrior
Tuesday, October 12, 2010

LabSpaces Fantasy Football: Week 5
Tuesday, October 12, 2010

Hey Man, quit Ramblin on a Tuesday
Tuesday, October 12, 2010

Cocaine is not a good way to start the week off...
Monday, October 11, 2010

Candidacy Exam: Last one out gets the lights...
Monday, October 11, 2010

Who would have ever thought that Gatorade was pro-evolution...
Sunday, October 10, 2010

Candidacy Exam: I think I'm qualified.
Friday, October 8, 2010

Giving you guys some culture...One Semester of Spanish, Spanish Love Song
Friday, October 8, 2010

I'm sorta Research Blogging...Insight into the function of PALB2
Thursday, October 7, 2010

Chances Are I'm bringing you old guy radio today
Thursday, October 7, 2010

You only knew it was a matter of time before I went off again...
Wednesday, October 6, 2010

Welcome to Wednesday
Wednesday, October 6, 2010

LabSpaces Fantasy Football: Week 4
Tuesday, October 5, 2010

What I'd be doing, if I wasn't doing this: A fishing story!
Tuesday, October 5, 2010

Keep Moving on Tuesday
Tuesday, October 5, 2010

A little Dave Holland recommendation for Tideliar
Monday, October 4, 2010

My mom reads my blog, Happy Birthday Genomic RepairMom
Monday, October 4, 2010

More than a feeling on Monday Morning: I rocked this song in Rock Band
Monday, October 4, 2010

Candidacy Exam: Fourth and inches...
Sunday, October 3, 2010

I'm running late because I got caught on the Radar Gun
Friday, October 1, 2010
September (45)

A man can only take so much bluegrass, time to rock!
Thursday, September 30, 2010

Don't be running down the street hungry as a hound on Wednesday...
Wednesday, September 29, 2010

How not to foster a scientific collaboration...
Tuesday, September 28, 2010

LabSpaces Fantasy Football: Week 3
Tuesday, September 28, 2010

In Spite of Tuesday
Tuesday, September 28, 2010

Candidacy Exam: Someone check his pulse
Monday, September 27, 2010

Stomp it out on a Monday
Monday, September 27, 2010

Update: To the coworker who saw me lose my shit tonight...
Friday, September 24, 2010

Hoping for No Rain on a Friday
Friday, September 24, 2010

Don't have a bad Thursday
Thursday, September 23, 2010

Don't be Greedy, enjoy your Wednesday
Wednesday, September 22, 2010

What is your opinion on reuse of a figure in a journal? Misconduct?
Tuesday, September 21, 2010

LabSpaces Fantasy Football Challenge: Week 2
Tuesday, September 21, 2010

Taking it back old school with The Tokens on a Tuesday
Tuesday, September 21, 2010

I've got a case of the Mondays...
Monday, September 20, 2010

A little Rebel Yell on Monday
Monday, September 20, 2010

An Open Letter to Bio-Rad...This is going to fuck up any chance of a sponsorship...
Sunday, September 19, 2010

A lawyer is calling stem cells outmoded?
Thursday, September 16, 2010

Happy Mexican Independence Day & Potential Darwin Award
Thursday, September 16, 2010

Is Science the Love of Your Life?
Thursday, September 16, 2010

Got it made in the shade on Wednesday?
Wednesday, September 15, 2010

Can you go the distance on Tuesday?
Tuesday, September 14, 2010

LabSpaces Fantasy Football Challenge: Week 1
Monday, September 13, 2010

Candidacy Exam: Damnit go away!
Monday, September 13, 2010

Don't break down on a Monday.
Monday, September 13, 2010

Good grief, its Friday!
Friday, September 10, 2010

Guest Post: The Easy Pub
Thursday, September 9, 2010

You don't know how it feels on a Thursday
Thursday, September 9, 2010

Funniest Comment Contest Part 2
Wednesday, September 8, 2010

Stay with me on a Wednesday
Wednesday, September 8, 2010

I wish I knew: A Tale of 2.5 stories...
Tuesday, September 7, 2010

Lets just be friends on a Tuesday...
Tuesday, September 7, 2010

In case you weren't signed up...
Monday, September 6, 2010

Come on ride that train on a Monday...
Monday, September 6, 2010

Candidacy Exam: Clocks ticking yo!
Monday, September 6, 2010

You want to guest post on LabSpaces?
Friday, September 3, 2010

Watch out for the small print on a Friday
Friday, September 3, 2010

Are you actually working with a neuronal line?
Friday, September 3, 2010

Groups
Thursday, September 2, 2010

Whats that smell and how should I mentor it?
Thursday, September 2, 2010

Travelling Riverside on a Thursday
Thursday, September 2, 2010

LFG...
Wednesday, September 1, 2010

Contest Winners!!!
Wednesday, September 1, 2010

Go Your Separate Ways on a Wednesday
Wednesday, September 1, 2010

My first (and best ever) conference...
Wednesday, September 1, 2010
August (75)

Mentoring a mentor?: Get it in writing.
Tuesday, August 31, 2010

Warning: Its Tuesday
Tuesday, August 31, 2010

I've survived a month of blogging.
Monday, August 30, 2010

New Yorker Article on Francis Collins and the Stem Cell Ruling
Monday, August 30, 2010

Crunch!
Monday, August 30, 2010

Can't Relate to a Monday
Monday, August 30, 2010

Female Science Bloggers...
Monday, August 30, 2010

Potential blogger drink err meet up?
Friday, August 27, 2010

Candidacy Exam: Scheduling, scheduling, scheduling
Friday, August 27, 2010

Friday morning special...
Friday, August 27, 2010

Dear IACUC inspector...
Thursday, August 26, 2010

The State of My Blog
Thursday, August 26, 2010

The Genomic Repairman's Book Club
Thursday, August 26, 2010

Wishing you were home on a Thursday
Thursday, August 26, 2010

Here is where you get to win the liquor
Wednesday, August 25, 2010

Epic Fail on a macroscale level.
Wednesday, August 25, 2010

Some recent big news in the DNA Repair field
Wednesday, August 25, 2010

Don't get caught asleep at the wheel on a Wednesday morning
Wednesday, August 25, 2010

Funniest comment, formerly most obnoxious contest...
Tuesday, August 24, 2010

Dear Trainee, the clock is ticking...
Tuesday, August 24, 2010

Cleanliness is next to...
Tuesday, August 24, 2010

Tuesday morning got you feeling numb
Tuesday, August 24, 2010

An Open Letter to Core Director
Monday, August 23, 2010

Conference Calls
Monday, August 23, 2010

Don't be blue on a Monday!
Monday, August 23, 2010

LabSpaces NFL Pick 'Em Challenge
Friday, August 20, 2010

Its Friday In Spite of Ourselves
Friday, August 20, 2010

The Genomic Repairman gets a pat on the back from the boss and a boot in the ass
Friday, August 20, 2010

Legit Science Question Here Folks
Thursday, August 19, 2010

Rise up on a Thursday Morning
Thursday, August 19, 2010

Dumping on technicians...
Thursday, August 19, 2010

Antibody Naming Contest Winners
Wednesday, August 18, 2010

Trying to find some music for tomorrow, like yesterday
Wednesday, August 18, 2010

ncRNA: Oh the splendor, oh the horror!
Wednesday, August 18, 2010

Still want in on Battle of the Science Blogs
Tuesday, August 17, 2010

Another twofer on a Tuesday morning.
Tuesday, August 17, 2010

Linked Out?
Tuesday, August 17, 2010

Data Embargos
Monday, August 16, 2010

I need a remedy for this sunburn
Monday, August 16, 2010

Cell culture question for the readers...
Monday, August 16, 2010

A letter to the other graduate student in my lab...
Friday, August 13, 2010

Friday morning groovin by the Fratellis
Friday, August 13, 2010

The Apprentice: The Finale!
Friday, August 13, 2010

Candidacy Exam: The Runaround
Thursday, August 12, 2010

Shake off them shoes if you got the Thursday morning blues...
Thursday, August 12, 2010

Update to the aged RO1
Wednesday, August 11, 2010

Candidacy Exam: The Series
Wednesday, August 11, 2010

Shameless product plug
Wednesday, August 11, 2010

Quality is when you...
Wednesday, August 11, 2010

Honestly I didn't think I'd make it to Wednesday
Wednesday, August 11, 2010

A LabSpaces Prayer
Tuesday, August 10, 2010

A two for Tuesday with the boys of Cracker and Camper Van Beethoven
Tuesday, August 10, 2010

You can hold an RO1 for 27 fucking years!
Tuesday, August 10, 2010

Name my antibody!
Monday, August 9, 2010

Antineoplastons? You gotta be kidding me!
Monday, August 9, 2010

Monday morning beats by Morcheeba
Monday, August 9, 2010

So I'm at work today so I figure I owe you a song...
Sunday, August 8, 2010

Well since I'm working on a Saturday
Saturday, August 7, 2010

So I got tagged in a damn meme
Friday, August 6, 2010

What are you doing to promote science to the public?
Friday, August 6, 2010

A chilled tune for Friday and an extra track
Friday, August 6, 2010

Say goodbye to film.
Friday, August 6, 2010

Long Lost Paper
Thursday, August 5, 2010

Feel alive with Live on a Thursday morning.
Thursday, August 5, 2010

A Forum For Discussion
Wednesday, August 4, 2010

Some Wonderful Music for a Wednesday Morning
Wednesday, August 4, 2010

Is this really elevating your science?
Wednesday, August 4, 2010

Helen Larson my ass!
Wednesday, August 4, 2010

2010 LabSpaces NFL Challenge & Banner Contest
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Balance...You gotta be kidding me.
Tuesday, August 3, 2010

Feeling Stuck on a Tuesday?
Tuesday, August 3, 2010

A Note On Peer Review
Monday, August 2, 2010

Monday Morning Soothing Tunes and Moving Music
Monday, August 2, 2010

Candidacy Exam Blues
Monday, August 2, 2010

How do you balance the job and life?
Monday, August 2, 2010
July (10)
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Blogger Profile

Genomic Repairman

The Genomic Repairman is currently a Ph.D. student who escaped from the deep south, and studies DNA damage and repair through biochemical and genetic approaches. He intends to use pine away about his scientific interests and rant about the things (and there are lots of them) that annoy him.

My posts are presented as opinion and commentary and do not represent the views of LabSpaces Productions, LLC, my employer, or my educational institution.

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Tuesday, September 21, 2010

So the other day I was going through a field specific journal and found an article from a European group that was sort of interesting to me but outside of my field. I perused their data and was interested in their siRNA knockdown data and was reading further and decided to pull up a previous paper that they published back in 2008. Low and behold the siRNA data is their too! And its the same exact western blot looking at protein levels and loading control. I pulled the images and redacted the data to let you guys take a look at this.

They don't make mention that this is from the 2008 paper and try to pass it off as original data in the 2010 paper published in a different journal. I think that is the kicker too, I'm sure the original journal would be none to pleased that this EuroGroup was doing this. So what do you guys think, is this misconduct, is it okay? My own opinion is that this shit is pretty shady.

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Brian Krueger, PhD
Duke University
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Hi, my name is Genomic Repairman, and I can't properly resize an image :P

I would consider this type of data re-use misconduct.

Genomic Repairman
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Dude its the fucking white border around the power point that I converted to the image. And I agree with you too.

Genomic Repairman
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Oh thanks for the fix man.

Brian Krueger, PhD
Duke University
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Brian Krueger, PhD said: Hi, my name is Genomic Repairman, and I can't properly resize an image :P


Hi, my name is Genomic Repairman and I'm incapable of cropping a powerpoint.

Sorry for the confusion. (Your posting area is 620 pixels wide...so just type 620 into the image width box :P)

Odyssey
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Misconduct.

Genomic Repairman
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I mean did they just not feel like pulling out the cells and doing the experiment again or did someone in the lab fuck up the western and just decide to copy the old one?

Nikkilina
Washington University School of Medicine
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Misconduct. I wonder what the rest of their data looks like. If they're that lazy, how careful are they being with everything else?

Gerty-Z
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yeah, that doesn't look good. I hope that this wasn't a main point of the paper. even so, I say misconduct.

Genomic Repairman
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No they were trying to show they could knock down expression of a particular gene in cells and then using cell extracts to do repair assays. I talked to someone on campus who is an associate editor for the journal and there response was, "Oh, that's not good." I don't think anything will ever be done, but it should hopefully leave a bad taste in their mouth the next time they get a paper from them to review.

Thomas Joseph
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Definitely misconduct. Can't believe this wasn't caught in review either. Well, I can believe it, but it's a shame.

Genomic Repairman
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I don't think anyone caught it because no one went back to their 2008 paper and scrutinized it like I did. I mean it only took about two seconds to be like, "Hey...wait a minute...you look like the 2010 paper...hey you are the 2010 figure...in 2008...oh shit these guys invented time travel...or they just borrowed their own figure."
captchalogincrapsuxxors

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Misconduct. Definitely.

MitoScientist
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Mad misconduct, yo!

Prabodh Kandala
Texas Tech University Health Science Center
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Not good at all

Prof-like Substance
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If the 2008 paper was in a small journal or was not critical to the conclusions of the 2010 paper, I'm not surprised it wasn't caught. As a reviewer, I don't have time to go through all of a group's old papers to judge the one in my hands. If the previous paper is central to the newer one, that's different.

That said, the reuse of figures is very shady, from both ethical and copyright perspectives. Fail.

Brian Krueger, PhD
Duke University
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Speaking of copyright, you need to credit the source when using images from papers, GR. :P

Namnezia
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That's obviously misconduct. If I were you, I would write the editors of both journals and show them the evidence. It's pretty bad.

Thomas Joseph
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As a reviewer, I don't have time to go through all of a group's old papers ...

When I do a review which is not double blind (a couple of journals I review for have a double blind review process now) I usually SCOPUS the first and last authors. I check their publication record in that field with what they are doing now. I've found an instance where they didn't cite themselves ... turns out they copied large portions of their work (text and data) in the uncited article. I rejected it immediately. I almost always go back and skim their most recent efforts (last two or three manuscripts) on the topic in the hopes that I would catch instances like what happened here.

Dr. O
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Misconduct without a doubt.

Nikkilina
Washington University School of Medicine
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Nice follow-up TJ.

Genomic Repairman
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This dude isn't my science enemy just happened upon the article because it sounded interesting, so if I report it, its not like I'm trying to get back at somebody. In fact their work was kind of shitty to be frank. Although do go check at Thomas Joseph's own personal story of finding misconduct.

Evie
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Definitely shady. I'm ok w the idea of referencing old stuff, but you most certainly need to make damn sure that fact is perfectly clear.
unamerican scientist

Guest Comment

My understanding is, this is a control, just to show their KD worked. Is it possible that they did this KD, plated some of the cells for an experiment that ended up in the 2008 paper and some for another experiment that ended up in the 2010 paper, and harvested some for the Western blot? Or is this out of the question, just on the grounds that they are a "EuroLab"?


Genomic Repairman
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When I do experiments with knockdown cells, I take a sample at that time of the experiment for westerns to show proteins levels.  Also this was siRNA knockdowns so its not like it was a stable line and you do the western for every time you transfect, not just the first time.  They were using knockdowns to study modification of another protein in cells, so my thought process is, every time you do the experiment, you do the western.

"Or is this out of the question, just on the grounds that they are a "EuroLab"?"

And I have no problem with them being a EuroLab, I have collaborators that I work with in Europe and elsewhere in the world.  So its kind of tiny-minded that you think I apply different standards to scientists based upon where they are geographically located.

unamerican scientist

Guest Comment

Just to clarify, my original suggestion was that the authors knocked down a gene in a batch of cells, performed two experiments (perhaps more) using cells from that batch and verified the knockdown once for the entire batch. One of said experiments ended up in a 2008 paper and another in a 2010 paper. Seems perfectly acceptable to me. Please explain what I'm missing.

Unless you tell us that the figures are labeled as different cell lines or siRNA sequences in the two papers, I say there is no reason to assume misconduct.


Brian Krueger, PhD
Duke University
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You're missing the fact that the gels are the SAME. If they did what you said, no one would have noticed a difference because bands never resolve EXACTLY the same way. They do here so you know for a fact that data has been re-used. I'm all for doing things in batch, but since this is science, I also put a high value on unique experimental replicates...

unamerican scientist

Guest Comment

Brian Krueger, PhD said:

You're missing the fact that the gels are the SAME.

 

I am missing nothing. I'm saying it's the same picture of the same gel. You seem not to understand what the role of this figure is in the experiment. I'll try to explain. This figure is not the experiment. Experiments such as this are performed to explore genetic dependencies of biological phenomena. This genetic approach consists in preventing a certain gene from being expressed and observing the phenotype. Whatever does not/cannot happen when a gene product is not present is what that gene product does when it is present. This is genetics.

Now, preventing a gene from being expressed can be achieved in a number of ways, one of which is to knock it down using siRNA. I won't go into the details of the method, I'll just mention that it's temporary and reversible.

Now, to the figure: These guys performed an experiment (or experiments), about which we know very little (DNA Repairman knows more), that required knocking down a gene. They show this figure not as the result of their experiment, but rather as evidence that the gene was indeed knocked down, and that their experiment(s) was/were performed in the absence of the product of that gene (or rather in the presence of very little of it, as there is a faint band visible in the KD lane).

Given this background, I'll repeat my explanation: Experimenter decides to perform two or more experiments in a given genetic background. To achieve the desired background, they introduce siRNA of a certain sequence into a batch of cells. The knockdown status of all the cells in the batch is identical, agreed? Now the experimenter seeds some of the cells from the batch onto some plates and performs experiment A. They seed other cells of the same batch onto other plates and perform experiment B. Finally, they harvest some cells *of the same batch* and do a Western blot (that's the figure under discussion) to see whether the gene product is present in the cells or not. Same Western blot, two experiments. I hope this is clearer now, sorry I had to be so verbose to (hopefully) get the point across.


Genomic Repairman
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If I'm pulling a batch sample out of freezer to study modification of a protein in that particular genetic background, I'm going to check my knockdown again if I'm trying to interpret a new piece of data from the sample.  But that is a moot point, the point is they reused a figure.  They could have referenced back to their previous journal but instead they actually committed copyright infringement by lifting a portion of a figure from one journal and putting it into their new journal.


Brian Krueger, PhD
Duke University
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@Unamerican, So you don't try to replicate your experiments?  You think doing something just once and copy and pasting that into every paper you publish is rigourous science?  I'm just trying to understand why you're defending this level of asshattery.

unamerican scientist

Guest Comment

I never said anything about pulling a sample out of a freezer. I'm not going to repeat the same scenario over and over again. It's not that complicated, and it's here in writing for anyone to read and judge for themselves.

 

There may be an issue of copyright infringement here, but that has nothing to do with academic misconduct.

unamerican scientist

Guest Comment

Brian Krueger, PhD said:

@Unamerican, So you don't try to replicate your experiments?  You think doing something just once and copy and pasting that into every paper you publish is rigourous science?

 

What's replicating gotta do with anything? They may have repeated the entire procedure three times for each experiment, as is the norm, but they'd still only show one of the three figures in the paper. I don't see why it's important to show one repeat of the supporting figure in one paper and a different repeat of the same in another paper, if the same supporting figure applies to both experiments, as outlined above.

 

I think DNA Repairman should go ahead and complain to the Journal. I'm fairly confident the group can provide scans of lab notes showing that what happened is precisely what I described above.


Genomic Repairman
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Sun, Oct 03, 2010, 1:14 pm CDT

If I do a western blot to look at protein levels of something else, I'm always going to check my knockdown.  Every time.  I mean that is what good rigorous science is.  If you disagree, then by all means do.  I'll hold myself to my standards and you can hold yourself to yours.  And I'm pretty sure this may qualify for the tag of FWDAOTI when we can apply those to our blogs here.

unamerican scientist

Guest Comment
Sun, Oct 03, 2010, 1:39 pm CDT

Genomic Repairman said:

If I do a western blot to look at protein levels of something else, I'm always going to check my knockdown.  Every time.  I mean that is what good rigorous science is.

But this isn't what good, rigorous reading comprehension is. If I write again that these experiments (in my scenario) were performed side by side, as in AT THE SAME TIME, will you finally get it? Otherwise, I give up. I really don't know how else to state this.


Suzy
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Sun, Oct 03, 2010, 5:21 pm CDT

unamerican: I understand your point, but, the papers are two years apart so hopefully in two years, they would have repeated the control experiment and would of had a new figure. Two years later, they'll be working with new lots of siRNAs, new cells, and antibodies.

This control should be done whenever new reagents are used.

What we don't know is if in this new paper, they used the same cell lines or siRNAs and are trying to pass off this knock down experiment as original.

They could have just referred to the previous paper if they were not trying to pass it off as something else.

The authors of a paper I was reviewing did exactly this same thing. They re-used a figure from their last paper, which was a cloning experiment, and tried to pass it off as the results of a new cloning experiment. Exact same figure, but different genes. 

They probably submitted their paper somewhere else where they won't be caught.

Anyway- back to your point, it is possible that all the experiments for the 2008 and 2010 paper were all actually done in 2007 and then they published some in 2008 and then the rest in 2010, but this seems unlikely.  As mentioned, why not just reference the previous paper if the experiment is the same? Why pass it off as new?

GR- in the two papers- are they using the same siRNA and same cells and same antibody for both figures or are they saying they are different?


Genomic Repairman
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Sun, Oct 03, 2010, 7:24 pm CDT

Jade Ed, they report the siRNA knockdown in the same cell line as before, but don't make mention to it being a previous sample.  Also they do not fully describe or reference the antibody used in the paper (which to me is a big no no but the journal let them slide on that).  The siRNA sequences are referenced to the old paper.  The description of the work is pretty vague so I can't tell if its from the old batch of cells or its a new batch.  Either way if I'm saying that if I knockdown the amount of this protein and it affects modification of this protein.  I'm not only going to run the western for the protein modification but for the knockdown as well too rather than relying on a two year old film.

We can debate this rubbish until the cows come home, but its still reuse of a figure, which I was fairly certain is frowned upon by journals.  Is it out and out fabrication of data?  No.  But I don't agree with doing it.  Reference back to the old work and give credit to the authors and journal that the original work is published in.

unamerican scientist

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Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 12:45 am CDT

Jade Ed said:

Anyway- back to your point, it is possible that all the experiments for the 2008 and 2010 paper were all actually done in 2007 and then they published some in 2008 and then the rest in 2010, but this seems unlikely.

 

 

Finally someone who can read. The rest doesn't seem to matter anymore. What a relief. Thank you, Jade Ed.


Suzy
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Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 9:53 am CDT

GR- it sounds like the reviewers just let this paper through without reviewing the paper. 

I review many papers where my company's products are used and I see this all the time. I've seen papers with experiments with no controls, figures labeled wrong, and conclusions made on "data not shown".

In one of these situations, I looked at where the authors were from, and then looked at the editorial board and saw that a member of the board and the authors both were from the same small liberal arts college.  I contacted the editor-in-chief about the paper and his response was "peer review works a lot better than you think." And he invited me to write an official response that would get linked to the paper in pubmed. I don't have time for that nonsense.

In another case, I contacted the authors of a paper to ask about their results and why they did something the way they did, and they wrote back and said, "I really can't remember- we did that work in 2005."  Seriously! More than once have authors written back to me to say they did the work 4-5 years ago and don't recall why they didn't use this or that control or why they didn't look at 260/230 readings, etc.

So then the question is, why doesn't a reviewer go "this paper is missing critical experiments to support their conclusions or is missing information that would allow someone else to repeat the experiment" if I do? Does anyone even read it? Could there be a lot of "old boys club" mentality going on and you need to have friends in the right places (editorial boards) to get your papers through without question? Maybe.

These journals that publish unedited rubbish? It reflects in their citation index scores.

You could use their paper for your next journal club to demonstrate to other students how not to write a paper.

 

 

 


Thomas Joseph
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Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 10:23 am CDT

Unamerican Scientist, when is infringement of copyright a morally acceptable behavior?


Brian Krueger, PhD
Duke University
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Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 10:58 am CDT

unamerican scientist said:

Finally someone who can read. The rest doesn't seem to matter anymore. What a relief. Thank you, Jade Ed.

I still don't understand the ridiculous point you're trying to make.  So what if they did the control for two experiments 7 years ago.  That doesn't make it OK to reuse the data lanes in another paper.  Don't be lazy and either re-run the gel (which is ethically not advised) or redo the knockdown (because this is science and replicates are GOOD) and check your results again.

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