NIce post, Gerty-Z! As someone who's not in the biomed, I wonder if you can you tell me how long are a typical PhD and a typical (total) postdoc experience before one gets a TT position in the biomed? (Anecdata's fine.) Do you know what the min and max durations may be for PhD+postdoc before getting a TT and how much variability there is among different subfields? What's a typical number of pubs a student has leaving PhD and how many more when they apply for TT? Thanks! And happy trick-or-treating with Mini G!

Eeeek!

That is truly terrifying.

Brian Krueger, PhD said:

Not every tenure-track position gets that many applicants. Everyone hears those horror stories because they're so memorable. But they rarely hear about the cases where nobody gets hired because the applicant pool wasn't deep enough.

Except vegetarians.

First of all, if someone can figure out how to get me bacon through the online application site, I think they would definitely get some extra attention from the search committee. I do love bacon.

Dr. Zen is right-this is an unusually large applicant pool. Like I said, our dept. is very broad and we had an intentionally vague advertisement. But, they did this last year, too, when I applied. And there are ~150 more applicants this year than last year. From what I understand, searches in other departments of my school that are more narrowly focused usually have far fewer (but still upwards of 200) applications.

Unlike Dr. Zen, I have never heard of a search that was unsuccesful because the pool of applicants was too shallow. This likely is a result from my limited experience and perspective only from large research-intensive institutions/universities. Every unsuccesful search I have witnessed from grad school through postdoc was due to the top candidate (or two) taking jobs somewhere else.

GMP-thanks! Mini-G had a fantastic time with the trick-or-treating. Toward the end I had almost got her convinced to say "thank you" before yelling "I GOT TWO MORE!!!". I can tell you what I am familiar with (basic science in biology-related fields). I have not seen major differences in programs from Biophysics to Neurobiology to Molecular Biology. I'm sure others could chime in with anecdotes from other subfields.

how long are a typical PhD and a typical (total) postdoc experience before one gets a TT position in the biomed?
PhD programs that I am famliar with have an average of 5.5 yr for a PhD. The first year is generally rotations. Postdocs are typically 5-6 years. I personally don't know anyone that came out in less than 5...but if you take more than 7-8 it may be concerning. I don't really know how the 2nd postdoc fits into this, as I only know a few folks that have taken this path. It seems that one postdoc is usually 1-2 yr and another is 4-5. But my n for this is really low.

Do you know what the min and max durations may be for PhD+postdoc before getting a TT and how much variability there is among different subfields?
From what I have seen, I can't imaging anyone getting a TT job without at least 8 years of PhD+postdoc. I don't know if there is a max, but probably nothing past 8+8?

What's a typical number of pubs a student has leaving PhD and how many more when they apply for TT?
This is really variable, and I don't think there is such a "typical". It is pretty easy to tell who "walked in" to a project and just started cranking out pubs. On the other hand, I think that I got some extra attention because I started two new projects as a postdoc, got them both funded and published in pretty good journals. I think that you probably have to have at least 4-5 (PhD+postdoc) to be competetive at my top 50 research intensive school. But I suspect the variation in that number is really high.

Thanks for the insight, G-Z, even if it is scary. I've heard the 250 applicant number for some of the more "focused" positions I've applied for, so I figured the number for some of the broader positions had to be upwards of 500. I'm curious about Dr. Becca's question, and I also wonder how much networking might help in a situation like this. I recently met a senior faculty at an institution to which I'm applying (one of those very broadly-defined positions), and she offered to help keep my application out of the triage pile. I don't really know how much she can do, but I don't think it can't hurt...

It's not just your experience. Searchs that don't result in a hire are just not discussed because people are afraid that they reflect badly on a department or institutions. You can imagine the comments:

"You couldn't fill a tenure track position? What is wrong with you people? Did you chase candidates away with pitchforks and torches?"

You couldn't fill a tenure track position? What is wrong with you people? Did you chase candidates away with pitchforks and torches?

Wait. We're not supposed to do that?

The initial triage will be easier than you think. In our searches last year (I was on 2 committees in 2 different departments, and my department had another search that I was not on the committee for), I found that about 1/3 of the applicants were not qualified (no PhD!, PhD in wrong field, no postdoc unless a SUPER-DUPER star, no recent publications (like in the last 5 years), or application incomplete). You can just look at the CV for that part. It takes minimal time.

Detailed post is here on my experience on search committees. Good luck!

Wow G-Z! There are computer hackers who aren't as effective as you... :-)

Why did you delete all of the quote delimeters?  They're there for a reason :P

Prodigal: thanks for the link! I don't know how I missed that, but I will be pouring over it in great detail in the near future!

Dr. Zen: I have certainly seen searches "fail" for this reason. It can be very difficult to go back to the pool if the search season is winding down. At that point, most of the really good applicants will already have an offer (or more). This is always a danger, and I have seen it happen many, many times. In fact, I know some people who were out on the market with me last year that are just finishing negotiating between >2 institutions for their positions. That mean some searches from last year are just now finding out they were unsuccesful!

I deleted them because when they were there it seemed even worse!!! Everything was quoted and then nested and then quoted again. I must have a special talent with f'ing up these things. Thanks for fixing it!

Maybe I need to think about how to make it look more obvious and less confusing...

@JSD - Awesome! A little project for the weekend methinks.  Maybe I could sell it at my local farmer's market!

Oh!  You'll have to strain the base.  Remove the fat and bacon.  Otherwise it will go rancid.  It'll be all tasteless anyway after sitting overnight.  All the flavor will be in the vodka.

Hrmmm...bacon flavored vodka...

Bacon & bourbon ice cream.

I am just curious - if you and 2-3 others need to select out your favorite 10-20% of the applications, how much overlap is there? Do you each come to the table with different piles? If so, then what?